Opuscula Test in controlled Environment is not The same as ‘real world’

Taurus revolvers and Liberty CD ammo: Incompatible?

I OWN A TAURUS Model 605 wheel gun. It’s made to fire .38 Special and .357 ammunition.

Firing 20 rounds of “range” ammunition is OK; but when that amount is exceeded, as it often is at a firing range, “bad things” happen.

Likewise, trying to fire more than five rounds of Liberty Civil Defense .357 ammunition requires an exercise in patience.

A FEW WORDS about the Liberty Civil Defense ammunition.

Get the lead out

From an “environmental” point of view, the ammunition is “friendly” in that is lead free. From a self-defense point of view, the ammunition is pretty good; it’s “a deep cavity projectile” (a/k/a “hollow point”) and fragments inside the target. From a shooter’s point of view, the .357 claims “reduced recoil.” Compared to American Eagle’s .357 that’s 100% accurate; shooters' hands quickly feel the difference.

According to Liberty’s web site¹, all Civil Defense ammunition is “copper, monolithic, hollow point, fragmenting, (for) personal defense.”

My experience with the Liberty .357 product in the Taurus 605 has been “fire five rounds and wait.”

While I never intend to get into a gun fight, having to wait approximately 5 minutes between reloads even at a firing range — most of which charge by the hour — can be, at best, frustrating. It seems that the Liberty copper, monolithic etc. cases swell and cannot be removed (ejected/extracted) from the Taurus until the cases cool and return to their original diameter.

This did NOT happen with the Federal “range” ammunition; fire five rounds, tip up the revolver, the cases fall out. No need for the extractor rod.

A Taurus problem or a Liberty problem?

My experience with Liberty the company has been even worse than with Taurus..

I complained both to Liberty and Taurus. Taurus eventually responded — more on that soon — but even after web mail AND snail mail, Liberty still ignores the customer.

I posted the issue to a gun owners’ web site; the response from fellow shooter — NOT Liberty — was that perhaps Liberty was packing a bit more powder than the Taurus’ tolerances can handle. Another shooter on the Smith and Wesson user web site reported no complaints using the Liberty .357s, but that shooter was firing a Smith & Wesson revolver.

What I told Taurus

When I FINALLY got Taurus’ attention, I explained that I had two (2) problems with the 605.

Problem 1: The Liberty issue; cartridges go in but won’t come out.

Problem 2: The cylinder gets out of alignment when more than (about) 50 rounds of ammunition are fired. The barrel of the weapon also gets more than “warm” to the touch. (The temperature is not a concern by itself.)

Mind, with the 605, the shooter loads five rounds, fires five rounds, dumps the spent cartridges, and loads another five rounds. I don’t use a speed loader² and I save my brass, so it’s not a quick process and there is some “cool down” time between “salvos.”

I explained to Taurus that I fired about 30 rounds of Federal .38 Special 158 grain LRN (target) ammunition and then fired American Eagle .357 158 grain jacked soft point ammunition. I managed to fire perhaps 20 rounds before the cylinder misalignment occurred. (I’d rather fire 100 rounds of Liberty’s .357 than 10 rounds of the American Eagle — the recoil is painful.)

What Taurus did

To its credit, Taurus paid shipping both ways. Then it kept the gun somewhat longer than the estimated six weeks — I didn’t complain; we had an unwanted guest named Irma that disrupted everything.

In the end, I got a call from Taurus telling me the gun was fine. When the gun was returned, I read that Taurus had fired 20 (only 20) rounds of .357 range ammunition and that nothing was amiss.

Of course nothing was amiss. Taurus could not or would not replicate the conditions under which I reported the failures.

I offered to hand carry five rounds of Liberty Civil Defense .357 to their gate. “We can’t accept that.” Well, how about calling Liberty — the company is less than 200 miles north of the Taurus facility — and asking Liberty to send a box (of 20) cartridges … Liberty probably would have sent the goods gratis. Nope; not an approved vendor.

Basically, Taurus “tested” the 605 in ITS environment, not the shooter’s. If I know in advance that a product will fail if it is pushed past a certain point or will fail if an unusual product is used — yet not a prohibited product, and the Liberty is NOT “prohibited” on any Taurus literature I have seen — I will make certain to stop testing before reaching the failure point or will refuse to test in the customer’s environment.

Taurus is satisfied it met its “lifetime” warranty agreement, albeit it did nothing to resolve either problem.

Liberty remains silent.

And the customer fumes.

Since I cannot get a response from Liberty, I am forced to buy a competition’s product. How not to increase market share.
I would LIKE to fire a box of Liberty CD .38 Special ammunition, but I am loath to spend the money and wait a week, or three, for the ammunition to arrive and then face the very good chance that the .38 Special cases will stick in the 605’s chambers as did the .357s.

Cartridges vs. bullets vs. shells vs. cases ³

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 1.  Liberty information: http://tinyurl.com/y93hb5oa

 2.  Speed loaders: http://tinyurl.com/ybqkxcvb

 3.  Ammunition definitions: http://tinyurl.com/y95xpdo3

PLAGIARISM is the act of appropriating the literary composition of another, or parts or passages of his writings, or the ideas or language of the same, and passing them off as the product of one’s own mind.

Comments on Taurus test

Opuscula Aluminum casings Expand to fill Cylinder’s chambers

MY #1 SON, THE COP, and I went to the range the other day. It was my first chance to try out my Taurus 605 wheel gun.

I had a box of .38s for the paper target and five rounds of Liberty Civil Defense aluminum-case .357 magnums. My son brought along his .40 service weapon and a .45 ACP pistol.

“ACP” for those not already “in the know” stands for “Automatic Colt Pistol,” a/k/a semi-automatic. .45 wheel guns normally fire .45 Long Colt ammunition, although now there is a moon clip adaptor to allow wheel guns to fire the less expensive, more commonly available .45 ACP ammunition.

Taurus, which made my .38/.357 magnum, made a .45 ACP wheel gun and several companies – notably Ruger and Smith & Wesson make .45 ACP wheel guns. Still, according to The Truth About Guns the results of firing an ACP round from a wheel gun are poorer than firing the same round from a semi-automatic. The bottom line seems to be if a shooter wants the power of a .45 ACP round, the answer is to buy a .45 semi-auto.

Recoil

I am used to firing .38 Specials from an over/under Derringer. Kick (recoil)? Negligible even with the very small (6 inch total length) gun. The kick from the Taurus 605 loaded with 158 gr .38 Specials from Wal-Mart seemed, strangely enough, more than with the Derringer. Maybe the difference was the age of the shooter.

My son convinced me to burn up a couple of clips (magazines) of his .40 service weapon. I was prepared for more recoil than I had with the .38. If there was a difference, it was not noticeable to me. Then he insisted I try the .45 ACP.

It’s reasonable to expect a major increase in recoil as the caliber gets bigger, but the .45 was easy to handle.

Finally, I loaded the .357 magnum Liberty Civil Defense high speed rounds. We both have the aluminum ammunition; he has yet to fire any from his .40, so, having fired three rounds I handed over the Taurus for his use.

Aside from being a bit of a flame thrower – I didn’t measure the flame, but it was substantially greater than the .38, .40, or .45s we had been firing – the recoil was no worse - in my opinion - than the .40 or .45. It may have been the loudest round fired, but as far as recoil nothing to write home about. My son is more than 6 feet tall and fires lots of rounds both on his own and to remain qualified with the (police) department – and his targets show it. I’m shorter, but I weigh in at “around” 180. How a lighter, delicate person would rate the recoil remains to be seen. (I intend to loan the Taurus with five rounds of .38 FMJ rounds for a woman in my neighborhood to try.)

Sticky casings

It’s a good thing I waited until the end of the shooting session to fire the Liberty Civil Defense aluminum ammunition. With all five rounds expended we discovered that the casing were expAnded.

Normally the casings fall out when the Taurus is tipped up. Not so with the Liberty’s. The aluminum cases were solidly stuck in their chambers. The ejection rod was immobile.

We waited maybe 10 minutes for the casings to cool and then we managed to bang the ejection rod to pop out the casings. Number One Son surmised that the heat generated by the power expanded the casing; letting it cool down allowed the casing to return to its pre-firing diameter.

I told him that this situation made use of the Liberty Civil Defense bullets a show stopper – what if I needed to reload? His logical reply: If you need to reload, run. I suggested he try several rounds in his .40 to make sure the semi-auto could eject a spent casing. (Never stand near a person firing a semi-auto pistol or rifle; casings fly in all directions; not so with wheel guns.)

.45 ACP revolver??

Having been impressed with the .45 semi-auto firing Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) ammunition,
and knowing .45 ACP ammo is less expensive and more available than .45 Long Colt (LC)
and knowing I wanted something with more “knock down” (non-lethal) power than my .38/.357 without the “pass through” of the high-speed Liberty Civil Defense ammunition,
I’m toying with the idea of searching for a revolver that fires .45 ACP.

There ARE some around; there was a Taurus (Raging Bull) that fired not only .45 ACP but the .454 Casull cannon. Taurus discontinued the weapon. Ruger makes (made?) the Redhawk 5032 that fires both .45 LC and, with provided moon clips, .45 ACP. But at a “suggested retail” of more than $1000, it’s a “bit” out of my price range.

At one time, c 1917, the U.S. Army bought .45 ACP M1917 wheel guns from both Colt and Smith & Wesson. While it might be possible to find an M1917, it might be a dangerous buy, given the advances in ammunition pressures since World War 1. The Army wanted something reliable (a revolver) to “supplement” the M1911 .45 ACP semi-automatic, not known for being a rugged, accurate, care-free weapon. (Semi-autos require much more Tender Loving Care (TLC) than wheel guns; no disassembly required to clean a revolver after use. I can clean my wheel gun in half the time it takes my son to break down, clean, and reassemble one of his semi-autos, and he does that regularly.) A Colt M1911 manufactured in 1922 recently sold for $1,700; like the Redhawk, out of my price range…and it was in only “fair” condition. The same site listed a Ruger Blackhawk from 1983 with .45 ACP and .45 LC cylinders for a mere $450 for a pretty nice piece.

Charter Arms offers/offered its Pitbull revolver in .45 ACP. According to the Personal Defense World web site,
“When Charter Arms introduced the Pitbull line, it didn’t use moon clips at all, but instead the ejector star/ratchet at the rear of the cylinder was made thick enough to contain small, spring-loaded plungers. When a cartridge is loaded into the chamber, the plunger is depressed and then pops back out to engage the extractor cut in the cartridge case. The round headspaces on the front of the cartridge case and, when the revolver is empty, the cylinder is swung out and the ejector rod pressed vigorously to extract the spent cases.”

The 5-shot, 2.5-inch barrel .45 ACP Pitbull lists, on Charter Arms web site for $500 +/- $25.

Then again

Most .357 loads are “slower” than the Liberty Self Defense aluminum ammo. Ballistics 101 lists .357 specs from a number of manufacturers, albeit Liberty is noticeably absent. The Liberty’s are hard to find and a bit on the pricy side. OK, they are lead free.

Plus, the Taurus 605 fires the less expensive .38 “Wal-Mart plunkers” as well as .38 +P (but given the punch of the .357, why?)

I believe I just convinced myself that, as much as I enjoyed firing the boy’s .45 ACP semi-auto I’ll hang on to the paid-for Taurus 605. Besides, I still have some Wal-Mart .38s and 15 rounds of Liberty aluminum to burn through. I just have to remember to fire the Liberty rounds at the end of a session.